BigTony
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Punishment - 50 years agoHello
My name is Tony Mendoza, I was a Boy Bugler at Deal 1952/53 - I am doing some research for an article to go in the Royal Marines Historical Society magazine. During those dim dark days I remember a boy musician was given the punishment of the cane (x number of lashes). the "criminal" was drafted to HMS Ganges to receive the punishment under the Naval Discipline Act -(Not permissable under the Army Act). I would be grateful if any of the old and bold could confirm the incident. Names will not be used, but I would appreciate any other details which would be applicable.
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admin
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Hello Big Tony and welcome... you nick makes you sound like a mafioso!
We have put your question in the Blue Band and I will also send it via email to a couple of people... wait out!!
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Dan A
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I recall that on the Eagle in the 60s two boy seaman who where in the sh1t for a serious behaviour , i cannot remember what, however the buzz around the ship was that they were gfoing to gets "cuts from the skipper as a punishment. apparently within the Naval Discipline Act at that time one of the Captains punishments for boys was to award the cane. Interesting thread. Welcome Tony are you the former PTI and Helo Pilot??
Dan
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charles laws
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50years agoI do remember one Boy Musician who lived in N Block getting the cane. As you say names should not be mentioned.
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BigTony
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| charles laws wrote: | | I do remember one Boy Musician who lived in N Block getting the cane. As you say names should not be mentioned. |
Tanks for that, I just want to confirm that the event occurred and what the offence was Tony Mendoza
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admin
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Tony, I have had 2 responses to your question from people who were around at the time:
1. I never heard of any Band Boy/ Boy Musician being sentenced to corporal punishment in my time under training 1948-50 at the RNSM/ RMSM. However, in January 1954 I was for a few months a B/Cpl VBI at HMS Caledonia, and I remember one of the ERA Apprentices was given a caning. It took place privately in a block near the Ship`s Company mess I lived in, and I believe was administered by the Master at Arms. So the punishment clearly was available to Naval personnel after the time Bug Mendoza mentions. Whether or not a Boy at Deal could be drafted to a naval establishment to be sentenced- not just the punishment itself, he would have had to be sentenced by a Captain RN with the necessary powers I am unclear . If he was sent from Deal to Ganges to be sentenced for an offence committed in Deal, then it seems to me that would have been circumventing the rules on discipline, at least in the spirit if not the strict rule of law. But I was away, so am not in a position to state with any definition. But in any case, caning was extremely rarely imposed.
2. I seem to have a vague memory of some boy seaman being caned at HMS St George, which was the Boys' training ship in the IoM at the same time as we were there, but it never was a numbered punishment like No1, Hanging at the Yard arm! In any case, you cannot serve Her Majesty under two different Discipline acts, and it would be grossly unfair to despatch someone to a different establishment in order to exact punishment for no matter what crime. I can think of one or two people who would have happily carried out the punishment though, if such were ever awarded!
So it seems doubtful as both of these gentlemen were serving around the time you are talking about. I'm pretty sure that at Deal they would have served under the Army Act, not the NDA.
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BigTony
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punishmentI agree in the main with your comments, however I have received some confirmation that I am correct, I would just like to ascertain what the offence was.
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charles laws
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The Boy Musician who was in Deal I believe was done in the Gym in South Barracks, it was around 1954-55, I believe was discharged quite quickly.
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BigTony
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Thank you for that - this is not the incident to which I am interested in as I would have left Deal acouple of years before this
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charles laws
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Just to rectify punishment was under the Navel Discipline act, I wrote plenty of charge sheets during my long reign as HQ company clerk.
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RAB
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| charles laws wrote: | | Just to rectify punishment was under the Navel Discipline act, I wrote plenty of charge sheets during my long reign as HQ company clerk. |
Ahhhhhhh. Now I didn't want to butt in earlier chaps (unlike me  ), but I was a bit confused over the legislation referred to.
eg..Wasn't an S126 a Naval thingy.?? 
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admin
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C126 is an investigation for lost kit.
S and R are normally for documents... (S52b leave record card and R138 Certificate of Service)
The NDA in Deal Charles?
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BigTony
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I should perhaps mention that I was an Instructor in the Clerks Training section for a number of years
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Pusser
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Interesting thread, this. I always had reservations about the administration of discipline for RM Bands – Booties as a whole really.
Always, clearly visible on shelves in the ‘Band Office,’ were copies of the Navy Discipline Act, Queen’s Regulations for the Royal Navy, the Army Act, Queen’s Regulations for the Army and a few other bits and pieces holding equal gravitas – like Navy Pay Regulations, Leave and Travel Regulations (extremely interesting, those two, extremely interesting!) and a few other hefty tomes often referred to when some less than legally trained but hard working Corporal Bugler/Acting Sergeant/appointed Drum Major had the hapless task of framing a charge. Now there was a phrase, “framing a charge.” I recall we had a standing joke, if they could not get you on one, they would on another. In truth, when you think back, the Band Service has a history of serious miscarriages of justice, mostly on a low level but wrong just the same. Another attractive memory was the apparent reluctance, on the part of those holding lofty office in the area of Band discipline, to allow lesser mortals to read these remarkable books.
Of course, as we all know, these BRs were ever present and I can distinctly recall seeing a copy of the Army Act on a shelf in the Ark Royal’s Band Office/WO’s & SNCOs Mess (such as it was.)
In the end much seemed to come from interpretation of one book and cross fertilization of one or more others. Without doubt I remember one Drum Major groping through RMROs and RMIs to find some route towards weighing a bloke off. I suspect the move of a Band Boy from a Royal Marines Barracks to a Naval Establishment, so he could be caned in the 50s, was a matter of interpretation. This ‘interpretation’ often had bonuses – Naval Barracks called HM ‘Ship’ came with Duty Free privileges and Rum! If that ain’ swinging words I don’t know what is.
None of this is to say, of course, that all our Company Sergeant Major types in the Band were book bullies. They were not, apart from one or two aided an abetted by the odd Bandmaster………let’s face it chaps.
(thinks: I wonder how much compensation claims would amount to for all those……………………………………….)
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bootybandy
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Well said Pat.
Having myself been on the "Carpet" on more than one occasion, I do believe that, as you rightly pointed out, charges were often concocted to fit the offence. There was also a lot of it down to the discretion of the C.O. who was hearing the charge.
I remember on one occasion when I was in the poop, consequential punishment was something that was attributed to the offence just so that the RN/RM could also have a pop as well. It was normal to receive a number of days forfiture of good conduct, which really meant that they required you to stay in the Corps an extra day, which also meant that they paid you an extra day at the end of your service time.
One such time was when I was before the skipper of HMS Drake for CP when he said how long had it been since I committed the offence to the time I was placed in front of him. The BM at the time said, "3 months Sir". The skipper said I should have been brought in front of him sooner than that, and he said, "Case dismissed".
That was about the only time I ever left the Captains Table with a smile on my face.
Oh Happy Daze....... 
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