| Archive for The Royal Marines Band Service On-line Community Bringing the serving and ex serving communities together |
| StickyBlue |
Depot Royal Marines Deal
For all those of you that marched through the gates of The Depot Royal Marines many years ago, the 7th May 2009 celebrates the official 148th birthday of the Royal Marines taking over the barracks at Deal from the Army. On the 8th May 1861 the Detachments from Woolwich and Chatham started to arrive… Many of you, like me, hadn’t a clue what they were really letting themselves into. I first learnt about the closing of Deal Barracks in about 1974 when Lt Col Nevelle called the band together in the concert hall to give us the news that the barracks was definitely going to close within a year or so. As history shows it had many reprieves finally closing in the 1990’s. When the closure was imminent I decided to start researching the history of the place as there was no official record and it seemed such a shame that it was going to close and be forgotten without trace when it represented so much of, not only the Royal Marines and Bands History, but also our great national heritage. 
The following is an excerpt from my research, which is intended to be incorporated into a my book about the Barracks eventually: THE EARLY DAYS OF THE DEPOT ROYAL MARINES Although it was not until 1869 that North, South and Cavalry Barracks were taken over by the Admiralty, the Depot Royal Marines had already been in existence for some eight years. On the 4th May 1861 the Royal Marine Office approved the supply of "coals, candles and straw for the use of the ranks about to occupy Deal Barracks", and addressed the authority to "Lt.-Colonel W.R. Maxwell, Commanding detachment Royal Marines, Deal" at 34 Beach Street, Deal, a house long since demolished, and situated just outside the North East gate of the Naval Yard. However on the 7th of that month, the address was altered to ".......Commanding Depot R.M. Deal", and that title is used in all subsequent correspondence, so that it would seem safe to conclude that the official birthday was on that date. On the 20th June the first Officers' Mess committee meeting was assembled, when it was determined: 1st-"That in order to form a fund for the establishment, etc., of a mess, each officer on joining shall pay an entrance of two days pay": and later 3rd-"That Mr. Geo. Morton of Deal be engaged as Mess man etc."; moreover, 7th-"That on Fridays, when any officer gives notice for a friend coming to dinner before 10 a.m., each member pay for a pint of wine in proportion, as at Headquarters". The manner in which "Mr. Geo. Morton" became "mess man" is not without interest. In subsequent R.M.O. correspondence can be found a postscript as follows; "P.S. - A beating order is herewith transmitted to enable you to enlist the mess man in question. Should it so happen that any eligible recruits offer themselves from time to time, whom you may consider it desirable to enlist for the Corps, you will be pleased to forward them to Chatham for approval". This "Beating Order", issued "By the commissioners for executing the Office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom, etc.", is worded thus: -"These are to authorise you, by beat of drum or otherwise, to raise volunteers at Deal for Her Majesty's Corps of Royal Marines, for the purpose of completing the said Corps to its establishment; and all Her Majesty's Justices of the Peace, Constables, and other Civil Officers whom it may concern, are hereby required to be assisting unto you in providing quarters, impressing carriages, and otherwise as there shall be occasion.- Given under our hands etc. etc." And so our obedient Mr. Morton, after duly being granted the rank of sergeant "without emoluments", and having been fitted into his uniform at Chatham, became mess man, in which position he served for some years, until, unfortunately, he became bankrupt. On Wednesday, 8th May 1861, a detachment of 1 Captain, 1 Lieutenant, 9 Sergeants, 7 Corporals and 35 Privates were dispatched from Chatham and Woolwich Divisions to form the nucleus of the new Establishment, and on the following Saturday, 100 recruits from each of these Divisions "not in the first squad under instruction", together with 1 Captain, 1 Lieutenant and three 'undisciplined Second Lieutenants' arrived at Deal to commence training. All these ranks were accommodated in the 'Royal Naval Hospital' (East Barracks), where small detachments of the Royal Marines had been stationed since the end of the Crimean War (1854). By August the Royal Marines Depot appears to have been in full swing, as the following extract from the 'Illustrated London News' of the 24th of that month would testify; "The new depot barracks for recruits of the Royal Marines is now in full operation at Walmer and a library and school has just been formed. Each married man of the establishment has a plot of land allotted to him for cultivation. The present number of inmates, chiefly recruits from the three Divisions of Chatham, Portsmouth and Woolwich, is 400; and as a proof of the advantages of removing young recruits from the temptations incident to garrison towns, it is worthy of remark that during the three months since the Depot has been opened no inmate has been charged before a magistrate" (C) Copyright 1994 J.C. Puddle No part of this document is to be reproduced either in print or electronically, in any way, without the permission of the author. 
North Barracks before the New Block, Dinning Room and Galley was built.  Happy Birthday Depot RM
(C) Copyright 1994 J.C. Puddle No part of this document is to be reproduced either in print or electronically, in any way, without the permission of the author. |
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| 2nd Clarinet |
Up late into the night there, JC.
Well done for this posting, very interesting reading and pertinant to lots of the members on this forum. Good luck with the book. (I want a signed 1st Edition) How far along are you with it? When do expect to finish it? If you need any contributions, I'm sure forum members would be willing to oblige. I'll have a look through my attic this weekend to see if there is anything that might interest you. OH YES.......Happy Birthday to the late 'Depot RM, Deal' 
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| bunky the bugler |
interesting reading JC, you've also sold another book, so that's two at the moment | ||||||
| Wee Mac |
I'll have one...........but only if you sign it "MUDS" |
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| medrummer |
fascinating stuff and I will have a copy of the book. I think if you look carefully at the picture of the band coming through the gates you can see Geordie Renwick in the front rank..god he looked old even then... | ||||||
| admin |
A PINT of wine from each mess member for the guest... CRAPPERS!!!!
That bottom photo is interesting. The appearance of a Colonnade was a bit of a double take. It will be interesting to see how often they changed the main buildings |
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| StickyBlue |
Bob, to answer your questions, the more I research it the more it escalates and it’s turned into a massive project. I have accumulated half a filing cabinet of info and photos but I am always ready for any other info or photos that past RM's have. I did take a draft copy into the Blue Band when they were still in Deal and Pete Rutherford said that their publishers were interested and would publish and pay for it, but unfortunately there was a lot more work to do and working full time it is a problem finding time and it is a never ending slog. Iam particularly interested now about the period between the two world wars or any events of major importance i.e. Royal or VIP visits, the Deal Tattoo that ran for many years etc, etc. So come on you old shipmates get in contact, any material used will be looked after and returned and credited to the supplier (only substantiated material please) Any info greatly received, I will put some more photos on later, cheers........
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| 2nd Clarinet |
Still see the Concert Hall (Church) in the background. |
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| Nick B |
Great piece there JC 
As a matter of interest, one of my Ancestors was an RMLI Recruit at the Depot from 15th Feb 1881 to the 29 Set '81. The CO's name at the time was H C A Blanchely. We have His service records
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| StickyBlue |
Nick, are you sure of the spelling as I have a complete list of Commanding Officers and it has a different spelling.???... 
Colonel H.C.N. BLANCKLEY..........C.O. from 4th Jul 1880 - 12th Apr 1882 If you have any other info I can use send it through to my email.
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| StickyBlue |
Deli,
I don’t think they changed them that much, until of course they pulled them down to make way for 61 Block, if you cast your mind back, I’m not sure if ‘E’ and ‘F’ block were still standing when you joined up on the left-hand side as you came in the Main Gate, N. Barracks. Buglers, when they passed out of training lived in these blocks with the GD Marines as part of HQ Coy (Al Blackshaw and I lived there for many years, amongst other buglers). The Blocks then went in order ‘G, and H, I, J,’ were joined together where 61(The New) Block stood, with the colonnade along the front, then a gap and of course ‘K’ Block on the end which you must remember. I have attached some more photos of the parade ground and colonnade. 
Quite a few on Parade that day! H,I,J with K block on the end. Between H & I block can clearly be seen a chimney which I believe was the Galley/Cookhouse. 
A better view before they built the Galley as we knew it, showing EFG, HIJ with colonnade and K Block on the end. Also there was no dining hall or galley built then by the Concert Hall and ‘H, I, J,’ block along the top of the parade ground had their own galley, possibly two ‘in house’ at the rear of the blocks, pretty primitive and nothing special as you can see from the photo. And finally for those of you that used to hate working in the Galley, think yourselves lucky you didn't have to work in one of these original galleys 
circa 1905 
circa 1905 (C) Copyright 1994 J.C. Puddle No part of this document is to be reproduced either in print or electronically, in any way, without the permission of the author. I’m sure there may still be some ex RM’s alive that can remember it, perhaps they can give us all some more details ??? |
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| Nick B |
You are probably correct JC as the hand wrirtten service doc. is very difficult to read
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| General Melchett |
Thanks Stickyblue v. interesting! Keep up the good work, I'd happily buy one. | ||||||
| 2nd Clarinet |
Old and New.......'K' Block and Drill Shed
20 across 13 to 14 deep! A good link for looking at the old place..... http://home.freeuk.net/eastkent/deal/marines/index.htm |
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| admin |
‘E’ and ‘F’ block were still there when I joined in 80 as was the Globe Theater. We were in 'K' block and 41CDORM were in 61 Block
I thought the above photo was SOUTH barracks but looking at it now I can see the church (Concert Hall). Cracking post mate... |
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| StickyBlue |
Well spotted Deli, definately North Bks, it looked totally different to what it looked like at the end.
If you look really closely in the back ground on the grass where the new Galley and Dinning room were built you can see about a dozen bell type military tents, these tents were used to billet the overflow when all the buildings were full! they also used tents at Kingsdown ranges for some ranks. As far as I can work out, at one stage there was about 2,500 ranks billeted in the Depot. 
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| StickyBlue |
I can black cat your photo Bob, RT rehersals 1968, 28 accross and shitehawk flying over
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| 2nd Clarinet |
Someone pinched the chimneys off the top of 'K' Block........ | ||||||
| sticky blue |
Well done JC keep up the good work and I'll have a copy as well 
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| StickyBlue |
Well spotted, bet it was a bugler
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| Wee Mac |
His nickname must have been "Stacks" 
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| StickyBlue |
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| Nick B |
The photos of the two 'Cook Houses', the top one looks very similar in design to East Barraks concert Hall
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| whoflungdung |
Fantastic work there John. Can you tell me what G block was used for? It looks to be rather ornate compared to the other blocks.
Furthermore, when Infirmary Barracks closed in the early 1980's I recovered a booklet amongst some old reading books that had been available for inpatients at the old hospital wing there. The books had been deposited in a bin for disposal, as most of them were pretty old. The booklet consisted of approximately 15-20 pages, if my memory serves me right, and it was about the history of the Royal Marines at Deal. I recall reading about the announcement of the 1st World War by way of a Bugler sounding off. I think that the booklet dated from around the mid 1960's, probably produced not long after the tricentenary. I know that I retained it & that it followed with me throughout several house moves. I have tried to locate it in recent years to no avail but I know that it must be somewhere "safe". When I do locate it, I will either copy it for you or send it to you for you to elicit whatever detail you wish. I would just ask that it was returned to me afterwards. I will let you know if & when I locate it. |
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| 3/78coxy |
im sure thats spud murphy (bugler, sorry queens bugler) as drum major,,,,,, | ||||||
| StickyBlue |
Cheers Gary, You are right, I seem to recall that I’ve read somewhere a bugler toured the town playing something like ‘Alarm to Arms’ or similar to announce that WW I had started.
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| StickyBlue |
Too young for spud.........hehehe 
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| StickyBlue |
'E,F & K', Blocks were exactly the same as far as I know and used for accommodation, being modernised over the years and washrooms and toilets built on them. It may explain why the chimneys are missing on the second photo when central heating was installed instead of the old coal fires. 'G' Block was built as a canteen for the lower ranks before the NAAFI came into being in 1921.
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| MrJpig |
What a brill thread. SB, give up the day job and get the book done mate. I think there will be big orders for this when it comes out. Keep up the good work
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| townsergeant |
I saw a postcard on eBay some time ago of a building in South Barracks describing it as a 'Galley'
(For those of you that know South Barracks, it is the building opposite the Admin Block, across from what was the Gym next to the gates that lead up to the Depot Church) Good effort JC. Hope to see it available soon from all good bookshops and a few bad ones, as well! |
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| Wee Mac |
Know where you mean TS. I do recall, that is where a former WO1 Corps Bugle Major, had accommodation there and there was a bit of an incident concerning naughty goings on, with a serving female. 
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| Nick B |
I spent many a night opposite the 'Admin/Magazine' on guard duty with my trusty pick axe handle
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| eric the red |
Ah yeah- the sentry box... I was the junior on duty one night, the trained rank being a percussionist from Staff Band. It was v. v. cold so he set the sentry box on fire to keep warm... after raiding the Gym to burn the PTI's plimsolls first...
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| Eric Hayward |
Will this book find its way to book shops down this way. I hope so as ot sounds as though it will be a good read,and of course I would like one. | ||||||
| Hornblower |
Fantastic thread JC and a brilliant taster of what's to come.
What's the ETA of the book, 'cos I'll have one too. The thing I find most interesting out of it all was in your original post - the fact that Deal was comprised of Chatham ratings from the very off!!! Waaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh ROFLMFHO
The photos are stunningly good too and your black cat of Bob's pic was superb (his drill shed doors were open too - very shoddy...)
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| Nick B |
Here is a copy of my ancestors Service Records JC. Stu take note of the Division!
Click to download file |
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| Hornblower |
My Dad was a Chatham Bootneck too - covered that years ago in here...
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| 2nd Clarinet |
JC.
Hope this one is useful. RMLI Barrack Room - North Barracks, Deal. Things to look for. Mess table for eating meals in middle of barrack room. Wood burner in top right of room. Same matress I was ended up with, when I joined. No full sized lockers. No waxed decks. What are those angled objects on both side walls? 
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| Hornblower |
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| RAB |
They look like some sort of luggage racks for stowing yer kit-bag, just like they had on the old trains...
Ahhhhhhh.. Now who has NEVER pinched the light bulbs from the old trains for yer bedside (well overhead) light in the Wing..???
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| Hornblower |
Only section commanders had lights in the wing I was dragged through.
No prizes for guessing whether or not I was privileged enough to have a bedside light then...
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| Mr Bass Trombone |
I don't thinkk the picture of the Band 28 across is of the 68 RT I think it is the one for Horse Guards in 64??? I am not sure that you would get a band of a 28 frontage in Earls Court Arena, I did a few RTs and can only remember a 20 frontage and that was bloody tight. | ||||||
| Mr Bass Trombone |
Just to add to the above from the book Fiddler on the March the biography of FVD by Derek Oakley a quote from page 193 by FVD,( during the 1964 celebrations when the LARGEST massed Band in our history was produced.) for those that have the book page 193. | ||||||
| 2nd Clarinet |
So, my massed bands picture may have been Black catted!?!?....but it was the wrong gig.... I will claim a very,very tiny, moral victory here.
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| Mr Bass Trombone |
Always willing to help Dogends out if I can. Once a Dogend always a Dogend. | ||||||
| StickyBlue |
I have been on a short break in the New Forrest, managed to log on, didn't realise how many 'experts' there are on here, I thank you for you comments and I will check out all your queries when I get home at the weekend.
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| StickyBlue |
Gary, I've found the relevant reference in my notes to your question and as I said before you were right the Depot Buglers did 'sound off' in Deal to announce the start of the Great War 1914-18:- THE DEPOT DURING THE GREAT WAR At 7 a.m. on 30th July 1914, the 'Assembly' was sounded in the streets of Deal by the Depot Buglers, and a few days later notices were to be seen inviting applications for employment on trench digging at Dover. The annual 'Tattoo' was postponed, and, after a full dress rehearsal had taken place.
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| StickyBlue |
Bob, I have the same photo only better quality and a bit clearer, it was used as a postcard in the early 1900's and there are a few of them still about, they turn up on ebay now and again. To answer your question, I am pretty certain that the angled objects high up on the wall are paintings or pictures, I did think at one time that they may have been mirrors, but on other photos from the period of the Officers Mess, Canteen etc you can clearly see that they are paintings. It must have been the norm in those days to hang them like that at an angle. 
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| StickyBlue |
Young Mr Micky H, You are right of course, having done enough of them (RT's) myself especially in the 70's, 20 across was tight. I was just quoting what was written on the back of the photo and that is obviously wrong. That'll teach me to believe everything I read
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| StickyBlue |
You missed the point, the Black Cat was 28 across irrelevant of what gig. I will not concede even a very, very tiny moral victory. Consider yourself still Black Catted... 
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| StickyBlue |
I will try and post more old photos later, with interesting snippets if you are all still interested.
In the mean time can one of you Band experts tell me if the Royal Marine Band has ever used Sousaphones and if they did why did they stop using them ? I believe they were specifically designed for marching bands as they direct the sound forwards instead of up in the air like the basses we use now????
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| Hornblower |
In fact Bob - he's black catted you again with the quality of the postcard he has. Raise your game son...
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| 2nd Clarinet |
Black Cat this...........
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| 2nd Clarinet |
AND This
They are eleven deep...god only knows how many across......... 
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| Wee Mac |
Maybe they are not paintings but pictures of the correct way of kit layouts etc ? |
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| townsergeant |
I thought they were Flat Screen TVs?
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| Wee Mac |
Transvestites wre not allowed in them days |
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| townsergeant |
....but they are now? 
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| sticky blue |
Are they ??? | ||||||
| Wee Mac |
I bet they like "Dressing by the Drum" | ||||||
| Wee Mac |
DL, "Right Dress"
TV, "No It's not, the one I wanted to wear didn't fit". |
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| MrJpig |
As they are facing the conductor on the steps doesn't that mean they are 11 accross and god knows how deep?? |
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| 2nd Clarinet |
Andy, 0 out of 10 for observation.........
The clue is in which way their feet are pointing, and the drum major out in front in spot light on right side of picture. There were conductors on all four sides of the arena due to the band(s) manoeuvres during their display. 2000 of them at Sydney 2000 Olympic Games ceremony. If you want to watch, it is in two parts which I have posted below. Can you imagine our Drum Majors trying to sort that lot out. lol! Part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej...p;p=623C1555265C4BA2&index=13 Part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK...p;p=623C1555265C4BA2&index=14 |
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| MrJpig |
Oooh silly me. I'll never be able to beat that.
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| RAB |
Don't have to my friend..... You are / were absoloutely spot on with your observation... (as per norm for a Jock Polis)... Some people just have soooooooooooooo much difficulty admitting a wee slight petite morcel of 'no quite rightness' in their description of a situation, that they have to start borrowing enough spades (sorry shovels) to dig themselves back out....
Happy digging... |
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| 2nd Clarinet |
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| StickyBlue |
Bet the Band would readily follow the front few ranks of this Band rather than our Corps of Drums  
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| StickyBlue |
Anyone got an answer yet ? 
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| Wee Mac |
The musicians behind the girls, must be The Glitter Band. |
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| Mr Bass Trombone |
I can never remember them being used in my time which was 56/81,maybe Col Jim will come in on this one as he is the(without wishing to sound rude) the elder statesman of the forum. Or maybe Joe 90 will know he worked for SoM. | ||||||
| medrummer |
I had an email today from Steve Misson which is copied below. It is basically asking for info about RM deal for an exhibit in Deal library and since we seem to have a wealth of knowlegde here perhaps someone [JC for instance with his book research?] might be able to help? Email below with contact details:
short ex police now male model.. The library in Deal is mounting a Royal Marines exhibition and are appealing for exhibits. The text below is from Sarah Frampton of the library. The idea is to bring together a collection of belongings, newspapers, photos etc and display them, at the same time scanning or photographing items to create a unique archive of items for the collection at Deal on the Royal Marines. We are hoping when we are refurbished that there will be chance to have more items on display. This is a chance to pool a communities resources and preserve something for future generations which is an integral part to the town of Deal and its people. Any help, guidance/suggestions you can give or indeed your own memories etc (we're interested in personal stories) will be gratefully appreciated. Best Wishes Sarah CSA Deal library If you would like to take part in this please contact Sarah at Sarah.Frampton@kent.gov.uk |
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| Ginge Deary |
[quote="StickyBlue"]
If the RMBS had ever used Sousaphones they would have stopped about the time mobile phones were invented, the latter being much lighter for the player and easier to transport to and from gigs. |
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| admin |
We have used Helicons which are a wrap around basses and look similar to Sousaphones. I believe the Sousaphone wasn't invented until the 1890s so there should be someone living who will know if we have used them... |
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| Ginge Deary |
Thanks to this forum I'm getting an education. At last.
I must be honest and say I'd never heard of a Helicon until Idi Admin mentioned them. 
Click to download file |
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| Jim R mason |
SousaphonesThe Band Service has never included Sousaphones in the line-up.'However, in 1961, when I was Director of Music at Whale Island; a regular event was Friday Divisions (every Friday!) when up to 16 squads of trainees spent the morning on the parade being inspected and instructed on how to march. The band was present for the whole morning and it did get a bit tedioous, there was often a discussion as to whether the band was playing at the correct tempo,(was that only 115 paces instead of 116 to the minute?) I killed that one by carrying a pocket metronome and producing that when the occasion arose and nobody dared to question it! I started the parade with the other officers and at the appropriate moment, the band marched on from behind the Drill Shed leading the March Past. On one memorable occasion - and much to my surprise - it included a brass sousaphone, played by Peter Orton, he had borrowed it from some local Jazz band for the day I was questioned afterwards as to whether it was some form of radar and managed to convince the Admiral that it was an experiment! As far as I know, that is the only time that a Royal Marines Band ever appeared with a sousaphone! |
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| Tanky |
Good try, but this rehearsal was 1964 for the Centinary of the Corps. This was the one and only time the Band made the famous Three hundred. |
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| 2nd Clarinet |
Do any of these pictures help......? 
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| Wee Mac |
Forget about Sousaphones, that CPL on string bass, is a dead ringer for Pusser!
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| Errol |
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| admin |
I bet you can't remember where you were stood in the photos 
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| Errol |
'B' Band, 2nd rank.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| Mr Bass Trombone |
'A' band 4th from the right behind the Bass Drummer. | ||||||
| medrummer |
for those of you in the Deal aea and are interested, a customer of mine has just set up a Royal marines exhibition in Deal library. Those of you who know the venue will realise it is not a huge display but might be of interest whilst wifey is buying shoes or collecting your methodone prescription..
short of money |
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| Nick B |
Thanks Brian I'll pop a long 
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| townsergeant |
..........I'll pop a long what?
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| Nick B |
I'll pop a long and slap you mr TS
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| Mr Bass Trombone |
Pop along Cassidy?? | ||||||
| Ginge Deary |
Get well soon Mick. | ||||||
| Hornblower |
Is Mick short of water down there in Spainshire?
(No Brian - not Short of water...) |